Does Excepted Service Count Towards Career Tenure

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HurryUpAndWait29		#1 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2020 6:06:05 PM(UTC)
Rank: Rookie Groups: Registered Joined: x/20/2018(UTC) Posts: 45 Thanks: 26 times Was thanked: xiv time(due south) in 10 post(southward)		Career tenure - from excepted service to competitive service How-do-you-do anybody, I have a question nearly career tenure. I am literally curt of a couple of days for a total of 3 years in the excepted service for TSA DHS to be considered every bit career tenure. Before the three years was completed, I transferred to another DHS agency, USCIS, that was fabricated possible by the interchange understanding. My current position is under the competitive service as a career-conditional employee. After my kickoff week, I had accumulated 3 years of federal service combined with the excepted service time. Though, as required, I had completed my one year of probationary period for this position, and so as of at present I have a total of four years in federal service. Will my fourth dimension in the excepted service count as creditable service in the competitive service, or will I have to complete an additional iii years in the competitive service for career tenure? I am moving towards the former. Kickoff point: the OPM'due south final dominion (effective 12/08/2016) on career tenure states it removes the the requirement for credible service to be "essentially continuous" and instead allows an private to reach career tenure after completing at to the lowest degree three years of "total creditable service". I translate this to be able to combine excepted service time with competitive service time. Second point: I believe I fit the criteria under CFR 315.201(b)(i)(2) for excepted service. In my case, I was a permanent date employee in an excepted position, and brought into the competitive service on that basis. I could have acquired competitive status or was converted to a career-conditional date. I was converted into a career conditional appointment because I had to consummate a probationary period. I'm thinking after the completion of my probationary condition, I would accept made career tenure. Tertiary betoken: under CFR 315.201(b)(2) competitive status, an individual may accomplish career tenure merely when employed in a permanent appointment in the competitive service that provides or leads to competitive status. In my case, I am in a permanent appointment position in the competitive service that led to a competitive status, which required i year of probationary flow. Any thoughts?

someoldguy		#2 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2020 6:29:18 PM(UTC)
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered Joined: 10/28/2013(UTC) Posts: 4,551 Thanks: 343 times Was thanked: 1026 time(s) in 868 postal service(southward)		If all you're looking for is thoughts then I'thousand your guy. It is my agreement that competitive service and excepted service are two different animals and the time won't transfer toward tenure. But I wonder if there might exist some special proviso in the interchange understanding, plus the fact you lot stayed in DHS? Those are my thoughts and now I am wearied. Hopefully some of our more knowledgeable folks will check in.
		DISCLAIMER: You read it on an open internet forum :)

ane user thanked someoldguy for this useful post.		HurryUpAndWait29 on 6/13/2020(UTC)

HurryUpAndWait29		#three Posted : Sat, June 13, 2020 7:52:53 AM(UTC)
Rank: Rookie Groups: Registered Joined: 10/20/2018(UTC) Posts: 45 Thanks: 26 times Was thanked: 14 fourth dimension(s) in 10 post(south)		Originally Posted by: someoldguy If all you're looking for is thoughts then I'thousand your guy. It is my understanding that competitive service and excepted service are two different animals and the time won't transfer toward tenure. But I wonder if there might be some special proviso in the interchange agreement, plus the fact you stayed in DHS? Those are my thoughts and at present I am wearied. Hopefully some of our more knowledgeable folks will check in. Cheers for your input. The worse instance scenario is that it doesn't count towards career tenure in the competitive service, and I would take to expect another three years to go career tenure. Being shy of three years by a couple of days before transferring, probably screwed up my career tenure...I should have waited to transfer after those days to make 3 years, so I could have transferred as a career-permanent employee instead of career-conditional employee...

smithandjones		#4 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 eight:57:23 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advisor Groups: Registered Joined: 7/one/2011(UTC) Posts: 168 Thank you: ii times Was thanked: 23 time(s) in 21 mail(s)		Career tenure is generally acquired through competitive service. . Just plain, there are scenarios where excepted service appointments can exist brought into competitive service. Run across here: http://https://www.govinfo.gov/...tle5-vol1-sec315-201.xml Zero yous've said makes me think these utilize but accept a look.

HurryUpAndWait29		#v Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 10:nineteen:47 AM(UTC)
Rank: Rookie Groups: Registered Joined: 10/20/2018(UTC) Posts: 45 Thank you: 26 times Was thanked: 14 time(southward) in x post(s)		Originally Posted by: smithandjones Career tenure is generally caused through competitive service. . But manifestly, there are scenarios where excepted service appointments tin can be brought into competitive service. See hither: http://https://www.govinfo.gov/...tle5-vol1-sec315-201.xml Nothing you've said makes me think these employ simply have a look. Thank you for your input. The link you provided is for CFR 315.201, in which I used to run into what category I am eligible under. I think I fit under CFR 315.201(b)(1)(ii) for excepted service.

Citrine		#6 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 12:46:41 AM(UTC)
Rank: Groupie Groups: Registered Joined: 10/13/2018(UTC) Posts: 71 Location: midwest Thanks: 1 times Was thanked: 6 fourth dimension(due south) in 5 postal service(s)		y'all said you transferred. so your position was not brought into the competitive service.

TheRealOrange		#7 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 2:37:58 AM(UTC)
Rank: Senior Fellow member Groups: Registered Joined: 5/22/2011(UTC) Posts: 998 Thanks: 1 times Was thanked: 197 time(s) in 173 post(due south)		Originally Posted by: HurryUpAndWait29 The link y'all provided is for CFR 315.201, in which I used to see what category I am eligible under. I remember I fit nether CFR 315.201(b)(1)(ii) for excepted service. Every bit noted, your previous position presumably is still in the Excepted Service and was not brought into the Competitive Service, every bit required by that subsection: (2) Nontemporary appointment to an excepted position, provided the employee's excepted position was brought into the competitive service and, on that footing, the employee caused competitive status or was converted to a career-provisional engagement; Bold added. The old position itself had to be converted. Since your previous position was not brought into the Competitive Service, and it appears that y'all but transferred to an entirely unlike position that was already in the Competitive Service, I doubt that the quoted subsection applies.

one user thanked TheRealOrange for this useful post.		HurryUpAndWait29 on six/fifteen/2020(UTC)

frankgonzalez		#eight Posted : Mon, June fifteen, 2020 3:50:22 AM(UTC)
Rank: Senior Fellow member Groups: Registered Joined: 8/eight/2008(UTC) Posts: 6,030 Thank you: 109 times Was thanked: 1200 time(due south) in 960 post(south)		I went from Excepted Service (DCIPS) to Competitive Service. Had tenure in DCIPS when I transfered from DoD to DHS. I had a new Probationary Period and 3 more years to tenure. The time in the excepted service counts towards retirement though.
		You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils

1 user thanked frankgonzalez for this useful post.		HurryUpAndWait29 on six/15/2020(UTC)

HurryUpAndWait29		#9 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 seven:25:53 AM(UTC)
Rank: Rookie Groups: Registered Joined: 10/20/2018(UTC) Posts: 45 Thanks: 26 times Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 10 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Citrine Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Thanks guys for your input. Information technology really helps. And then essentially, my fourth dimension in the excepted service is not creditable service in the competitive service at all, but in retirement? Man, so if USCIS follows through with this RIF, I'll be place in "Tenure Grouping 2" as career provisional employee correct? @frankgonzalez, fifty-fifty if y'all had tenure in DOD, you still were considered a career-conditional employee, and had to look iii more years? I idea under "tenure transfer" in the CFR, it states that "a career employee who transfers remains a career employee" I started reading about intervening service. Practice you guys think this applies to me? Information technology is under the crediting service section of CFR 315.201(b)(3)(iv). (iv) Intervening service. Certain types of service that ordinarily are not creditable are counted when they intervene betwixt two periods of creditable service. Under these atmospheric condition, credit each period of service: (A) In the excepted service of the Federal executive branch, including employment in nonappropriated fund positions in or under any Federal agency; Since my excepted service time is usually not creditable, just I was within two pay periods of creditable service/career tenure in the excepted service (less than three-iv days brusque of 3 years, which is within two pay periods of creditable service/career tenure in my old position), should this be counted? Edit: condone the intervening service. I read the sections over and over, and I'm mistaken. When they are talking about between two periods of creditable service, they referring to the periods between two services like excepted service and temporary, term, or other nonpermanent employment in the Federal competitive service. I thought they were talking virtually between two "pay" periods of creditable service! Haha homo, these regulations gave me a headache over the concluding couple of days...so I don't think I authorize under whatsoever of them...sadly Edited by userMon, June 15, 2020 8:44:34 AM(UTC) \|Reason: Not specified

TheRealOrange		#10 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 8:00:19 AM(UTC)
Rank: Senior Fellow member Groups: Registered Joined: 5/22/2011(UTC) Posts: 998 Thanks: one times Was thanked: 197 time(s) in 173 post(due south)		Originally Posted by: HurryUpAndWait29 I accept a question about career tenure. I am literally brusk of a couple of days for a total of iii years in the excepted service for TSA DHS to be considered equally career tenure. Earlier the three years was completed, I transferred to another DHS agency, USCIS, that was made possible past the interchange agreement. My current position is under the competitive service equally a career-conditional employee. Later my first week, I had accumulated iii years of federal service combined with the excepted service time. Though, as required, I had completed my one yr of probationary flow for this position, so as of now I take a full of 4 years in federal service. Volition my time in the excepted service count equally creditable service in the competitive service, or volition I have to complete an boosted 3 years in the competitive service for career tenure? I am moving towards the former. Get-go point: the OPM'due south last dominion (constructive 12/08/2016) on career tenure states it removes the the requirement for credible service to be "substantially continuous" and instead allows an individual to attain career tenure afterwards completing at least iii years of "total creditable service". I interpret this to be able to combine excepted service fourth dimension with competitive service time. Second point: I believe I fit the criteria under CFR 315.201(b)(1)(two) for excepted service. In my example, I was a permanent engagement employee in an excepted position, and brought into the competitive service on that ground. I could have caused competitive condition or was converted to a career-provisional appointment. I was converted into a career conditional date considering I had to consummate a probationary menstruation. I'm thinking after the completion of my probationary condition, I would accept fabricated career tenure. Third point: under CFR 315.201(b)(2) competitive status, an individual may attain career tenure only when employed in a permanent appointment in the competitive service that provides or leads to competitive status. In my case, I am in a permanent date position in the competitive service that led to a competitive status, which required one year of probationary period. Any thoughts? Every fashion you seem to be reading the regulations would allow anyone with iii years of service in the Excepted Service to acquire career condition in the Competitive Service. I don't think that'south the way information technology is intended to work. As a full general dominion, service toward tenure in the Excepted Service is not creditable toward tenure in the Competitive Service. They are carve up tenure systems. I spent over twelve years in the Excepted Service earlier applying and being selected for a position in the Competitive Service. I had to be in my new position for iii years earlier attaining career status in the Competitive Service. Showtime betoken: What rule, regulation, etc. indicates that time in the Excepted Service is included in "total creditable service" for attaining career status? While the rule removed "substantially continuous" from the requirement for career tenure, the regulatory requirements still exist. You would have to meet one of the provisions of 315.201(b). That is, yous would accept to show that your time in the Excepted Service counts toward completing at least 3 years of full creditable service as described in department 315.201(b). 2nd point: With respect to 315.201(b)(2), yes, you are currently employed in a permanent appointment in the Competitive Service that will lead to competitive status. Just, was your previous position in the Excepted Service ane that would do that? I don't think then. Third point: As for subsection 315.201(b)(one)(ii), the fact that yous transferred to the Competitive Service isn't relevant. That subsection applies just if the position itself is changed from the Excepted to Competitive Service. I don't see how completion of the probationary catamenia and three years of service in the Excepted Service can outcome in career condition in the Competitive Service. I'm but not seeing an exception that fits your state of affairs. But, I'one thousand not an skilful, so perhaps others hither tin can encounter something I'g missing. Best of luck to you.

ane user thanked TheRealOrange for this useful post.		HurryUpAndWait29 on 6/fifteen/2020(UTC)

HurryUpAndWait29		#11 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 8:24:43 AM(UTC)
Rank: Rookie Groups: Registered Joined: 10/20/2018(UTC) Posts: 45 Thanks: 26 times Was thanked: 14 fourth dimension(south) in ten post(due south)		Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Every way you seem to exist reading the regulations would allow anyone with three years of service in the Excepted Service to larn career condition in the Competitive Service. I don't think that's the way it is intended to work. As a general rule, service toward tenure in the Excepted Service is not creditable toward tenure in the Competitive Service. They are divide tenure systems. I spent over twelve years in the Excepted Service before applying and being selected for a position in the Competitive Service. I had to be in my new position for three years before attaining career status in the Competitive Service. Starting time point: What rule, regulation, etc. indicates that time in the Excepted Service is included in "total creditable service" for attaining career status? While the dominion removed "essentially continuous" from the requirement for career tenure, the regulatory requirements still exist. You would have to meet ane of the provisions of 315.201(b). That is, you would have to prove that your time in the Excepted Service counts toward completing at least 3 years of total creditable service as described in section 315.201(b). Second bespeak: With respect to 315.201(b)(2), aye, yous are currently employed in a permanent engagement in the Competitive Service that will lead to competitive status. But, was your previous position in the Excepted Service one that would practise that? I don't recollect so. 3rd bespeak: As for subsection 315.201(b)(ane)(ii), the fact that you transferred to the Competitive Service isn't relevant. That subsection applies just if the position itself is changed from the Excepted to Competitive Service. I don't see how completion of the probationary period and 3 years of service in the Excepted Service can effect in career condition in the Competitive Service. I'm but not seeing an exception that fits your situation. But, I'm not an expert, and so peradventure others here can meet something I'm missing. Best of luck to yous. Cheers for your input. I am very receptive to all the helpful information provided to me thus far. So if I don't come across any of the exceptions, does that hateful I cannot utilize the "intervening service" section of the CFR to my situation?

frankgonzalez		#12 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 viii:39:36 AM(UTC)
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC) Posts: half dozen,030 Thanks: 109 times Was thanked: 1200 time(s) in 960 mail service(south)		Originally Posted by: HurryUpAndWait29 Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Every way you seem to be reading the regulations would allow anyone with three years of service in the Excepted Service to acquire career status in the Competitive Service. I don't think that's the way information technology is intended to piece of work. Every bit a general rule, service toward tenure in the Excepted Service is not creditable toward tenure in the Competitive Service. They are carve up tenure systems. I spent over twelve years in the Excepted Service before applying and existence selected for a position in the Competitive Service. I had to exist in my new position for iii years earlier attaining career status in the Competitive Service. Beginning bespeak: What rule, regulation, etc. indicates that time in the Excepted Service is included in "total creditable service" for attaining career status? While the rule removed "substantially continuous" from the requirement for career tenure, the regulatory requirements all the same exist. You would have to meet one of the provisions of 315.201(b). That is, you would take to bear witness that your time in the Excepted Service counts toward completing at least iii years of total creditable service every bit described in section 315.201(b). 2d betoken: With respect to 315.201(b)(2), yep, you are currently employed in a permanent appointment in the Competitive Service that volition lead to competitive status. But, was your previous position in the Excepted Service i that would do that? I don't think so. Third point: As for subsection 315.201(b)(1)(ii), the fact that you lot transferred to the Competitive Service isn't relevant. That subsection applies only if the position itself is changed from the Excepted to Competitive Service. I don't see how completion of the probationary period and three years of service in the Excepted Service can result in career status in the Competitive Service. I'm but not seeing an exception that fits your situation. Simply, I'm not an expert, so perchance others here can run into something I'm missing. Best of luck to you. Thank you for your input. I am very receptive to all the helpful information provided to me thus far. So if I don't come across whatever of the exceptions, does that mean I cannot apply the "intervening service" department of the CFR to my situation? Think of Excepted Service as Apples and Competitive Service as Oranges. They are not the same affair. They have similarities (both are fruit/both are federal employees), but and then again...they are dissimilar. Military service does non count towards tenure in either Excepted or Competitive service either fifty-fifty if you were doing the exact same job while in the military. You lot can purchase back the time to count towards retirement, merely it doesn't modify your probationary periods or time for tenure. You left excepted service...that time will count towards tenure in the excepted service IF you go back without a gap in time from your time in the competitive service (ie 2 years 11 months Excepted Service> 9 years Competitive service>Excepted service..then y'all only need a month to get tenure in the excepted service and all the time counts towards retirement). You have the ability to apply as an internal candidate for both Excepted and Competitive Service positions now.
		You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils

one user thanked frankgonzalez for this useful mail.		HurryUpAndWait29 on vi/15/2020(UTC)

HurryUpAndWait29		#13 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 8:l:14 AM(UTC)
Rank: Rookie Groups: Registered Joined: 10/20/2018(UTC) Posts: 45 Thanks: 26 times Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 10 mail(s)		Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Originally Posted by: HurryUpAndWait29 Originally Posted past: TheRealOrange Every mode you seem to exist reading the regulations would allow anyone with three years of service in the Excepted Service to acquire career status in the Competitive Service. I don't recollect that'southward the way information technology is intended to piece of work. As a general dominion, service toward tenure in the Excepted Service is not creditable toward tenure in the Competitive Service. They are separate tenure systems. I spent over twelve years in the Excepted Service before applying and existence selected for a position in the Competitive Service. I had to exist in my new position for three years before attaining career status in the Competitive Service. First signal: What rule, regulation, etc. indicates that time in the Excepted Service is included in "full creditable service" for attaining career status? While the dominion removed "substantially continuous" from the requirement for career tenure, the regulatory requirements still exist. You would have to come across one of the provisions of 315.201(b). That is, you would accept to show that your time in the Excepted Service counts toward completing at least iii years of total creditable service as described in section 315.201(b). Second point: With respect to 315.201(b)(ii), yes, y'all are currently employed in a permanent appointment in the Competitive Service that will lead to competitive condition. But, was your previous position in the Excepted Service 1 that would do that? I don't remember so. Third point: Equally for subsection 315.201(b)(i)(2), the fact that you lot transferred to the Competitive Service isn't relevant. That subsection applies just if the position itself is changed from the Excepted to Competitive Service. I don't see how completion of the probationary period and iii years of service in the Excepted Service can result in career condition in the Competitive Service. I'm merely non seeing an exception that fits your situation. But, I'm not an expert, so peradventure others here can see something I'1000 missing. Best of luck to you. Thank you lot for your input. I am very receptive to all the helpful information provided to me thus far. And then if I don't meet whatever of the exceptions, does that mean I cannot apply the "intervening service" section of the CFR to my state of affairs? Think of Excepted Service as Apples and Competitive Service equally Oranges. They are non the same affair. They have similarities (both are fruit/both are federal employees), but and so again...they are different. Armed services service does non count towards tenure in either Excepted or Competitive service either even if you were doing the verbal same job while in the military. Yous tin can buy back the fourth dimension to count towards retirement, but information technology doesn't modify your probationary periods or time for tenure. Yous left excepted service...that time volition count towards tenure in the excepted service IF you go back without a gap in time from your time in the competitive service (ie 2 years eleven months Excepted Service> 9 years Competitive service>Excepted service..then you only demand a month to get tenure in the excepted service and all the time counts towards retirement). You have the ability to utilize as an internal candidate for both Excepted and Competitive Service positions now. Now, it all makes sense. Thanks! I had to edit my originally post nigh the intervening service subsequently this realization. So either way, I would not have gained tenure when I transferred to the competitive service. Edit: condone the intervening service. I read the sections over and over, and I'm mistaken. When they are talking about between ii periods of creditable service, they referring to the periods between 2 services similar excepted service and temporary, term, or other nonpermanent employment in the Federal competitive service. I thought they were talking almost between 2 "pay" periods of creditable service! Haha human being, these regulations gave me a headache over the last couple of days...then I don't recall I authorize under any of them...sadly

lukieb		#14 Posted : Tuesday, June 16, 2020 7:26:xiv AM(UTC)
Rank: Fellow member Groups: Registered Joined: 3/20/2013(UTC) Posts: 23 Thank you: 7 times Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)		I'm in the reverse camp, in that I'm leaving competitive service for excepted service. I just found out a few days agone that although I'm cleared to leave competitive service in a couple of weeks, I would be doing so just five days before my tenure date. I understood this to hateful that if I were to come back to competitive service, I would accept to be probationary once more, since I didn't meet the three year marking. Is that correct? If so, would it be prudent of me to just wait a couple of weeks (say, a pay period) until I become those 5 days and obtain tenure, just and so I'd accept it? Or is waiting relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things? I am enlightened that the fourth dimension doesn't necessarily transfer between competitive and excepted, just I desire to brand sure that my bases are covered in the issue I go back and forth during my career.

frankgonzalez		#15 Posted : Tuesday, June xvi, 2020 7:52:57 AM(UTC)
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC) Posts: vi,030 Thanks: 109 times Was thanked: 1200 fourth dimension(s) in 960 mail service(s)		Originally Posted by: lukieb I'm in the opposite camp, in that I'm leaving competitive service for excepted service. I merely found out a few days ago that although I'm cleared to leave competitive service in a couple of weeks, I would be doing so only v days before my tenure date. I understood this to mean that if I were to come up back to competitive service, I would have to be probationary over again, since I didn't run across the three year marking. Is that correct? If and then, would information technology exist prudent of me to just wait a couple of weeks (say, a pay period) until I get those 5 days and obtain tenure, but so I'd have it? Or is waiting relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things? I am aware that the time doesn't necessarily transfer between competitive and excepted, but I want to make sure that my bases are covered in the event I go back and forth during my career. A pay period wait isn't the end of the world, and if it would mean yous articulate the 3 year marker neatly, I'd would do it. Heck, I pushed my start date for a promotion to after my WIGI to Step 5 to ensure I started the new grade at step two. Once you have tenure in both, you lot can switch back and forth without probation issues (except for new serial, new supervisor, etc type probationary periods).
		Y'all should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils

1 user thanked frankgonzalez for this useful post.		lukieb on half-dozen/16/2020(UTC)

smithandjones		#sixteen Posted : Tuesday, June 16, 2020 2:09:10 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advisor Groups: Registered Joined: 7/1/2011(UTC) Posts: 168 Thank you: 2 times Was thanked: 23 fourth dimension(due south) in 21 mail service(due south)		Yes. Become those iii years in competitive service. The career tenure is gilded.

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